[Mageia-dev] How will be the realese cycle?

Fernando Parra gato2707 at yahoo.com.mx
Thu Oct 7 06:21:37 CEST 2010

On Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:25:13 +0100
Buchan Milne <bgmilne-tobu8poG+uhSwrhanM7KvQ at public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 6 October 2010 03:39:04 Fernando Parra wrote:
> > On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 08:00:46 -0400
> > 
> > Sinner from the Prairy <sinnerbofh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w-XMD5yJDbdMTcBkidbGgD4Q at public.gmane.orgg> 
> wrote:
> > > Juan Luis Baptiste wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Fernando Parra
> > > > 
> > > > <gato2707-/E1597aS9LQGXtTpemXPTA-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg at public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > > >> A different approach could be a "light rolling distro", let me
> > > >> explain. A distro with a selected number of programs updated regular
> > > >> as their new versions are available.
> > > > 
> > > > That's what backports are for, no need for a "light rolling distro",
> > > > just contribute and help doing the backports for different Mageia
> > > > versions if you really want them. That's what I do and it was one of
> > > > the main reasons to become a contrib packager :)
> > > 
> > > I totally agree with both Juan Luis Baptiste and Buchan Milne.
> > > 
> > > No rolling release!
> > > 
> > > This is just a fancy word.
> > > 
> > > But then, the "goals" of "rolling release" are already accomplished with
> > > the current Mandriva system, and I hope Mageia will keep this
> > > functionality:
> > > 
> > > backports
> > > 
> > > Probably, what needs to happen is to publicize more backports for
> > > advanced/cutting edge/rolling users instead of changing something that is
> > > not broken.
> > > 
> > > Salut,
> > > Sinner
> > > 
> > > That's maybe a solution, backports, but let me be less ambiguous about a
> > > different model.
> > 
> > When a expert group are working in a re-engineering process at any company,
> > the first wall that they need to broke is: "Oh, but, this is the way in we
> > work since... ¡and it's works fine for us!
> Sometimes the consultants aren't aware of all the attempts that were made to 
> fix the issue in the past, and the reasons for their failure, and end up 
> recommending solutions that are doomed to fail unless other conditions change.

First of all an apology, this was originally written in Spanish and translated by Google.

Must first be clear that Mageia is in fact a process of re - engineering Mandriva. All of us here have perfectly clear that things are not working as they should in Mandriva, and if we are consistent we should be clear that there is not only a matter of management.

Moreover, if we stick to the numbers, something is not working at all well with all Linux distributions, while despite all the virtues and benefits of free software, the number of users is still very small . For example:

> > In the same way the backport method (called different as different distros
> > are in this world) is the same since... ¡and it works fine for us!
> You didn't reply to my response to your list of favourite applications, which 
> were, except for Netbeans which is out-of-date in cooker, all provided in 
> backports.
> So, why did you not use the packages from backports? Was it because the 
> concept is flawed? Or, is it because backports aren't advertised well enough to 
> users?

Actually my list almost does not matter, in fact it does not matter at all, because I understand myself as an atypical user. Although I am a teacher, I have a degree in electronics engineering and other in engineering software. And while my particular list does not matter, my experience allows me to see quite clearly both sides of the coin (the end user and developer).

With the clear intention of showing the point of view of end users, the inexperienced, was how I expressed myself here. As developers continually forget that is what the user wants and focus on what we need.

I find it obvious that the purpose of a distribution is not to develop everyday applications, however its purpose is to provide the framework on which you can run the latter.

> Let's first understand the problem completely before re-engineering to fix a 
> problem that doesn't exist ...
> > Mageia are trying to be different than other distros (as I understand).
> > Unfortunately I only have read a lot of answers told me why no (thanks to
> > all of you), but any of them made any improvement to my idea, as well
> > there aren't any alternative way.
> First you need to articulate why the current Mandriva method is not working 
> for you.
> > When Mandriva was madded first time, its goal was to be a very user
> > friendly distro; a Linux for non technical people. But at now there are a
> > new world with a lot of distros with the same goal. For this reason we
> > must do our new way.
> > 
> > In example:
> > 
> > For the same reasons that I have read here, a lot of users never turn on a
> > backport repository, with hundreds of packages inside it, but maybe if
> > there is another repository called "top 10" or something like that
> > (remember I proposed run a poll), these hypothetical users may turn on
> > that repository.
> This is quite difficult, as different users have different perceptions of what 
> their top 10 packages are. I don't use netbeans or gambas2 or lazarus or 
> openshot, and hardly ever use wine.
> For me, the important packages at the moment are:
> -xbmc (backported)
> -lensfun (backported, by me)
> -digikam (backported, by me)
> -openldap (backported, usually by me)
> -pioneers (backported)
> -quassel (backported)
> -qtcreator (not backported, but I am using NokiaQtSDK at present)

What I do not like Mandriva model (and indeed of any distribution) is that although free software is developed very quickly, once you have installed a distribution, you must wait a cycle to gain access to new versions (not just security patches) and also must pass through the traumatic transition from installing any operating system. Beware! Not for me, and certainly not for you, my only problem with that is time.

Let me explain with a practical example. A user needs with urgency (without judging their motives) the new version of aMSN to use his video camera, with the current model need to wait for the new operating system version and then install it completely. And to make matters worse this will only work until MS decides to change the protocol again (as I read he has done countless times).

Assume that a user, who never pass from being a mere user of basic services will even try to understand that is the backports repository or cocker or anything similar, is at best naive.

I do work continuously with such people, and I have made clear they want solutions as simple as giving a couple of clicks to solve this type of situation.

I do not use any IM service, personally I find abhorrent subject, like many other modern gadgets, but not going to close my eyes to the reality of their continued use.

Without being interpreted as an offence, for the same reasons, I think your own list is not important.
The only list that should matter is that determined by a reliable and time hopefully. That list that reflects what the needs of end users.

> > Are there countries with a expensive rates or a slow dial-up connections?
> There are many countries where there is insufficient fixed-line infrastructure 
> for low-cost internet access. In South Africa, although I worked for a Telco, 
> I could never get DSL (due to cable theft). Mobile broadband was the only 
> option, starting at R2/MB (approx US$0.30/MB), or maybe R0.20/MB (approx 
> US$0.03/MB on 2GB/month package).
> ADSL penetration is about 1-2%, cellphone penetration is over 80%, mobile 
> broadband penetration is about 10%.
> Even on ADSL, many subscribers are on a 2GB (R200, or approx $70 per month) or 
> 3GB/month package (other packages are available, and topup is possible).
> (However, I run a Mandriva mirror which is available after users are capped, 
> but running Mandriva updates could prevent you from accessing Google, 
> Facebook, using skype etc.)
> You can find some (outdated, but still useful) statistics on internet access 
> and pricing here:
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/int_pri_bas_for_int_us_per_mon-price-basket-
> us-per-month

If we actually stopped to see the problem of Internet access charges, never get to do anything for fear that the final product will not reach users. If this really were a factor, the distributions would never have grown from a few floppy disks, many floppies to a CD, 2 CD, 3 CD and now DVD (Tomorrow 2 DV and so on?).

> > Surely they are more comfortable with Mageia knowing that they don't need
> > to download a 700 MB each six months (surely more if they need to install
> > more applications) cause they only need the next version of...
> I download once, and update 5 machines, and often provide media to other users 
> in SA.
> > No other distro has an feature like this, it probably become a better offer
> > in a very fragmented and competitive world of GNU / Linux distros.
> Hm, you need to explain this "feature" in much more detail, and indicate all 
> the pros/cons over the Mandriva style.
> > I don't want to create any more controversial. I only need one thing of
> > you: Before answer me why not. Made a question to your self: What if...?
> What if more people actually contributed ...

Again, without trying to offend: at this stage of Mageia try to think collectively, at least in my humble opinion this is to contribute, do not you think so?

> /me gets back to working on some Mageia infrastructure.
> Regards,
> Buchan
> Maintainer of these packages:
> http://maint.mandriva.com/listpkgs.php?owner=14

Regards from Mexico
Fernando Parra <gato2707 at yahoo.com.mx>

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