[Mageia-discuss] Suggestions

andre999 andr55 at laposte.net
Thu Oct 28 03:13:57 CEST 2010


Frank Griffin a écrit :
> Michael Scherer wrote:
>    
>> To the defense of the drakx developpers, I do not think that choosing in
>> the installer is really a so good idea :
>>
>> - during installation, you do not have web access. Thus, you will have a
>> hardtime to really find information on what does a software. If you use
>> rpmdrake, you can ask to friend, ask on forum, ask on a search engine.
>>
>>      
> This is really a more general issue of the availability of detailed help
> during the install.
One of the strengths of Ubuntu.  (Of course having paid documenters helps.)

>    To focus on package descriptions, which really
> *are* of interest only to more advanced users (very few newbies know
> enough about Linux to care about minimalist installs), completely misses
> the point that there is a lot of other information about what's going on
> in the install that *would* be of interest to newbies.
>    
It depends what you put in the package descriptions.  Something like 
"You really should install this" is totally meaningless to almost everyone.
A good description is not necessarily highly technical.  It is really 
the application packages that a newbie would want to select, 
dependancies will be automatically selected, as in now the case.  If a 
summary description is clear, that could be sufficient.
But I tend to think that a full description should be used for 
application packages.

> The issue, as always, is competition for space or bandwidth between help
> and program content.  If you access it through the network, people
> without network access won't get it.  If you put it on the media, it
> redices the space available for programs.
>    
Why not have "one" ISOs on "small" DVDs ?
Say 1G, 1,5G instead of 4,7G
We don't have to insist on CDs.
Maybe call them "one plus" ISOs ?

> This is why I think that such help, package descriptions, etc., should
> be separate from the rpms.  In the past (and maybe still, as I haven't
> done a from-media install for a while), the install asked the user if he
> had additional media to use.
Addition media is still asked.

>    A slight expansion of this could ask how
> many CDs/DVDs the user has available and whether the network will be
> available (or should be activated) in order to access additional
> packages and help content.
>    
Network is always asked.
Unless the user has a fast connexion, help over the network would be a pain.
Even on a medium-speed connexion, 10x as fast as dialup.
Much better to download a DVD (or CDs).  Then the actual installation 
process will be much faster.
Of course downloading the occasional file would not be problematic.

> For the install media, we should go back to the arrangement we had in
> the multi-CD days.  Cooker required something like 9 CDs for everything,
> but the essentials were placed on the first CD, and content was arranged
> on the others by type.  The "standard " install used 2 or 3 CDs, and the
> install basically tailored itself to the number of CDs available.
>    
Multiple CDs has been replaced by DVDs.  Much faster for the same amount 
of data.
No swapping.  And much more reliable.
A DVD is 7.2 650M CDs, or 6.7 700M CDs.
Of course the user would have to have a DVD writer to create one.
But most computers would be able to read one.
It might be a good idea to ship DVDs for a nominal fee.
We could even try to arrange shipping locally, for minimal costs.

> In the same spirit, we could have a set of package-related ISOs, and one
> or more documentation ISOs.  If a non-network user wants extended help
> and package descriptions in translated format, he obtains these ISOs.
> If not, he doesn't.  At the start of the install, the user gets a prompt
> with checkboxes for each of the possible ISOs, and can indicate which
> are available.  For any that aren't, the install doesn't even try to use
> what's on them.  If the install detects enough available unused disk
> space, then the first use of any ISO can copy some or all of the ISO to
> hard disk for the duration of the install.  Any prompt for an ISO has a
> way for the user to say he really doesn't have that one, in which case
> it is not prompted for again.  All this should minimize the amount of
> disk-swapping.
>    
Lots of disks, but minimal disk-swapping ?
Why not a single DVD, and no disk-swapping ?
> That answers the objections of those who don't want to have to download
> many ISOs to do an install, and also addresses the needs of non-network
> users (e.g. small schools) who want a full-featured set of install media
> that can be reused repeatedly for friendly installs without network
> access.  It also minimizes disk-swapping, unless the system is really
> tight on space, in which case the install is at least still possible,
> albeit with some disk swapping (assuming the user wants to use multiple
> ISOs).
>    
Note that schools would generally have the bandwidth to download a DVD.
So little or no need for disk swapping.

The problem with all this is it makes things more complicated.  For 
Mageia.  For new users.  But maybe not so much for experienced users 
with a large bandwidth.  But are these the users we are addressing ?

> As always, network users could opt to download dynamically anything they
> didn't have ISO media for, with the same provision for caching, if space
> allowed.
>    

Localising the package descriptions shouldn't take a lot of space, 
compared with localising the software included.
I really don't understand the real advantage of separating the package 
description from the package.  To save 1% of ISO space ?  At what price 
complexity ?

my 2 cents :)

- André


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