[Mageia-webteam] [Bug 1956] Can not edit posts in forum (after timeout)

[Barry Jackson]

https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1956

--- Comment #14 from Barry Jackson <zen25000 at zen.co.uk> 2011-07-06 01:07:58 CEST ---
(In reply to comment #13)

> 
> Then let's see if we can do better here with objective arguments.
> 
That would be good - but if nothing will be done after then it's a waste of
time.
> 
> > > > and little or no consideration of the utility of the Forum as a research resource
> > > > for users and of the fact that this limit can make life difficult for those people
> > > > who spend time providing assistance to other users.
> > 
> > Exactly
> >
> 
> On the contrary : BIG consideration was given to this point. But these special
> users that are helping others on a regular basis are not common users. 

Yes, in most cases they are.

> As packagers or translators, or sysadmin are not common users either. All 
> follow
> mentoring process and are given the proper privileges once they have been
> considered ready to do their jobs without help or control...

You misunderstand forums - regular users helping each other.

> 
> Users that write tutorials or that helps others on a regular basis can be
> granted the proper privileges to edit own posts or other posts without
> limitation. 

Oh boy - this just gets worse.

> (Well for this point of posts needing permanent edition like
> tutorials... see later doc-tool part which is a discussion)
> 
> But on a default basis no-one with common sense would give root password on the
> servers or allow Mr Unknown to push whatever package he wants to the official
> repositories... well on a less critical context users privileges on official
> forums need obviously to follow similar scheme as other teams.

Well, anyone can edit the wiki

> 
> Roughy : 
> 
> => Read only of topics for everybody (opensource way)
> => Comment / Create topics for common subscribers
> => More privileges for active forums contributors (like people helping others
> on a regular basis or writing tutorials, or packagers that make the effort to
> come to help users...) privileges that can vary depending of contributors
> needs/activities.
> 
> 
> > > You have to distinguish the forum-as-a-discussion-place (where keeping posts in
> > > their original form is crucial) and the forum-as-a-support/doc-tool-place
> > > (where obsoleting/updating posts, with update timestamps is crucial as well).
> > > 
> > > Both have their own contingencies and may be best served by distinct platform
> > > (the former is more in phpBB's original purpose, the latter more in an
> > > equivalent to http://stackoverflow.com/ platform).
> > > 
> > > If those are to be served by the same platform, that makes several use cases to
> > > satisfy. And here obviously, the forum was first thought as a discussion
> > > platform.
> > 
> > Well no actually :-
> > http://www.mageia.org/en/support/ 
> > 
> > This shows the forum as primarily a "support forum" not as a discussion place.
> > 
> 
> There is njon contradiction there : Many projects use bugtrackers like Buzilla
> as a support system (others use mailing lists or Sourceforge/Savannah embedded
> miniforums). All those don't allow late edition. And very few consider that
> abnormal :)

I'm not concerned with those. This is about the Mageia users forum.

> 
> Support IS discussion and nothing more :)
> but at the moment the forum is (i confirm) more thought
> as a discussion/support platform thant a doc/tool/publication one.
> 
> (We can also consider to change this during discussions)
> 
> > > 
> > > So you may of course argue of the contrary, but arguing won't lead as far as
> > > really giving a hand, joining the team and helping to better configure the
> > > team, the platform, and if needed, a distinct platform.
> > >
> > 
> > By reporting this bug the intention was to give a hand at improving the forum
> > by making the job of those prepared to help and offer support easier.
> 
> Well, at the moment if you have a true need to edit your posts because they
> look like 
> tiny tutos/guides/howtos and because you prefer to work on the forum for these
> publication 
> we can start an experimentation with you (specific user role like tutorial
> writer and/or specific
> forum area with a name to be defined) and see if the result is positive / users
> feedback...

No thanks - I would just like this bug fixed.
> 
> > Likewise with https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1188 which has also
> > fallen on stony ground.
> > 
> 
> It did not... 

Yes it did - no action has been taken.

> but i'm not sure doing the reqested change bring more good than
> harm.

Again - just your decision.

> (It can be reverted though if we have many users complainig and it will not put
> topic 
> flow at risk on the contrary of edition privileges)
> 

Many users already spoke in that bug. 
And how on earth could a reply notification spoil topic flow - lack of one just
ruins it as the people in the topic don't know that there has been an answer. 

> 
> In my opinion it IS expected behavior : if you push words to the world (IRL
> speaking, or in mail or ir instant messaging) noone could expect to be able to
> get back in the future to erase the said words.

I give up... sigh

> 
> In a forum if you say something and that people refer to it later in the topic
> (or elsewhere in personal blogs or bugtrackers or whatever) They expect the
> targeted post not to change because if it changes drastically their answers
> would loose sense. And that is not what one should expect.
> 

Well I do expect it - and if I change something I make it obvious and also
consider the impact on following posts.

> 
> > This bug report is not about politics but simply about the time limit on the
> > editing of posts.
> > 
> > Can we put the politics to one side and discuss just the bug please?
> > 
> 
> Then you have technical and objective arguments on the matter itself here :)
> 
> And for the "valid" reasons you gave :
> 
> (In reply to comment #0)
> > There are many valid reasons why it may be necessary to edit a post.
> > 
> > 1. It imparts incorrect information.
> 
> It could also allow to break valid information (think for example of spammers
> that could post unharmful links like screenshots with basic user question then
> change them 3 weeks later to push viagra or whatever)
> 

Now that's what mods are for.

> > 2. The information is out of date.
> 
> For this a later post is a better way because a big change on out of date
> information would result in many posts making no sense (like "hey the link is
> broken : here is the good one").
> 

That depends on the person making the change having some sense - something
which you seem to feel that no one else has.

> Further, sometimes the date can be still valid for some users or some versions
> of software (think that people don't always follow the update rythm... changing
> the data to match new versions would deprivate them from the original post
> which is what they need)
> 

Not always. 

> For that editors discipline is the only solution (choosing between new post
> and/or update with a proper changelog so that users can know that the post was
> edited when and why...)
> 

Exactly - so where is the problem?

> And we would not expect such discipline from every user...

Here we go again - users are idiots - we must protect the world from them -
attitude.

> so we come back to
> mentoring process and dedicated privileges for users that will play by the
> rules...

So now I need mentoring to use a forum in the way that I have used it in
Mandriva for the last 2-3 years?

> 
> > 3. A minor edit would improve comprehension.
> > 
> 
> For tutorials and things like that yes... but do we want forums to host such
> pieces of valuable information ? (See wiki vs forums discussion here above)

Again - anyone can edit a wiki without mentoring

> 
> For discussions : better explain later so that posts of users asking for
> precision do not loose sense.
> 
> > In all these cases it is not appropriate to add another post to offer a
> > correction as it may be several pages from the original post, also the
> > incorrect post would still be available to be read.
> >
> 
> Well as said above, it is often better to have access to the original post
> (wich is not necessarily "incorrect") so that the logic flow of the following
> post is not broken. (Again: except for reference posts like tutos).
> 

Again, users are quite capable of deciding what is appropriate.

> 
> > Forum posts are searched and used to solve problems in a similar way to the
> > wiki.
> > Imagine the author not being able to edit a wiki entry.  
> 
> Yes but we DO HAVE a wiki and the forum is not necessarily supposed to compete
> with it... if you try to push the idea of having long life piece of information
> on the forum you'll have to pass over the dead bodies of wikis advocates :o)
> 

Users are always pushed to search the forum for the answer to a problem before
posting - what are they looking for if it's not information?

> 
> > BTW I tried to get a post modified by reporting it to the mods with clear
> > instructions about what needed changing and it's now at 3 days and counting
> > with no response.
> 
> You have had your post modified... there is still a mod we to finish (because
> nothin fit our needs for that) to accelerate processing of reports. Once done
> you'll wait far less.

Thank you, yes and it did not cause any of the supposedly negative issues that
you raised earlier, and neither would it if I had done it myself. 

> 
> And for making a topic as Sloved a mod is also on it's way : so no need for
> edition on this aspect :)

And will you be able to un-solve it as well if the problem re-appears, as can
often be the case?

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