[Mageia-discuss] [Cooker] Re: Transparency & open invitation to a united foundation..? [Was: forking mandriva]

[Per Øyvind Karlsen]

2010/9/22 Jerome Quelin <jquelin at gmail.com>:
> On 10/09/21 21:49 +0200, Per Řyvind Karlsen wrote:
>> > You will leave your newborn in the "hands" of the same company whose
>> > lack of direction caused this situation?
>> >
>> > Maybe I'm a "little" paranoid, but i think we should listen
>> > ex-employes / developers. They know the sh*t from the very inside.
>> Ah, yes, two ex-employees / developers which were actively involved
>> with the development of the distribution over so many years.. Uh, oh,
>> wait, no they weren't.
>> I'm questioning whether they actually grasp all of the work required
>> to put together a distribution. I also find it odd when I see
>> statements from them on IRC which seems to be in conflict with others
>> involved with this that they intend on going in a different direction
>> independent of Mandriva. With all the people being brought aboard with
>> Mageia from the Mandriva Linux community, I find it hard to believe
>> that there has been established a consensus about this with all of the
>> people involved and that they really want to do everything on their
>> own and not care about keeping relations or anything with what they've
>> been involved with on actual community basis and over longer times
>> than either of these two..
>
> since you were not part of the discussion*s*, what you believe doesn't
> really matter. i can tell you that there is a consensus to release a
> community distribution. in fact, it was more of a consensus: it was the
> stated goal around which the rest of the project was born.
Interesting fact you point out there, why wasn't I part of it? Why was
I excluded?
Given my history of being one of the oldest and most active
contributors, part of the assembly and being the main person behind
the foundation proposal back in 2007 and actively pursuing it since, I
even brought in an offer from someone to fund it and proposed this to
the same people behind this fork, around the same time as when they
started discussing it, and I wasn't just ignored, I was even
considered a threath.

It seems to be rather obvious why I wasn't part of the discussions and
was intentionally excluded, just as it illustrates that the discussion
didn't really involve the whole community.

I anyways don't see why anything I believe about Mageia is of any less
relevance than what you believe about Mandriva.
>
>
>> Are you guys *really* planning on doing the whole distribution on your
>> own totally independent of Mandriva without any interest of
>> collaborating?
>
> yes. period.
Your short, firm and decissive response to this obviously seems to
lack any proper consensus or support from the community. Obviously you
have something that you really need to work out..
>
>
>> To me, these responses of Romain and Nicolas seems to confirm all the
>> questions I raised earlier in this thread, suggesting that the fork
>> and their motivations are personal and not out of concern and care for
>> the community, despite these motivations officially given. I guess
>> there's a reason for why they avoided these critical questions raised
>> towards them, and rather chose to attack constructive attempts at
>> doing what's in the best interest of the community in stead.
>
> i am just a contributor, who was part of the discussions before the
> launch of mageia. i am not a former mandriva/edge-it employee, but yet i
> totally agree with the various opinions stated here: currently, mandriva
> (the society) has failed to properly communicate with the community.  we
> were never aware of what was going on, what were the plans, what were
> the goals, etc.
???
This doesn't relate at all to what you're replying to.
>
> please take that into account, and the frustration it created.
>
> now, do you really think that mandriva's ceo coming and saying "guys you
> are right, let's create something together" is to be taken seriously?
It's a response to an invitation to create something together with and
to interest of everyone. If it's your desire to create something like
this already, why would you not be interested? What ulteriour motives
do you think would be hidden behinds this? If it's not serious, then
what are the consequences you'd be fearing when it's something that
wouldn't make you dependent on it, but rather getting support from it?
Worst case scenario would be to not get the support you didn't expect
for creating something.
>
> so, for now, i think that mageia should start alone. it might be more
> difficult, but results will our owns, and what we'll manage to do from
> this situation. and if mandriva is really gueniously interested in a
> foundation, it will do whatever is needed to make sure mageia succeeds.
> in one year from now, we'll have a better view on what's going on, and
> if mandriva favors a real, independent community mentality (not to
> mention the fact that nerves will have settle).
>
> that is: we will judge mandriva for what it's doing, not it's saying.
> facts, not words.
>
>
>> But sure, I've only been actively involved with the development of
>> this *community* distribution and on several other levels for a decade
>> now, being amongst those involved for the longest time, while also
>> being an ex-employee myself, I've primarily been active through the
>> community independent of my employment nor imposing personal feelings
>> towards company on the community. And I can also truly claim that I
>> have an absolute full understanding of all the work an complexity
>> involved in putting together the whole distribution and put tons of
>> more hours into this on my sparetime and out of interest for
>> contributing to the community, making me quite aware of the fact that
>> you'll have a pretty darn hard time doing this and organizing the
>> whole thing on your own.
>
> good for you.
>
> but you know, this is a fork - we announced *our* decision, and people
> join *if*they*want*. i did not handle a gun over people to force them to
> come on various mageia mailing-lists and propose their help. it was
> their choice. you may not agree, but please respect their choice. same
> as i respect your choice: you prefer continuing with mandriva, fine. and
> i won't come and try to convince you over and over: we're grown-ups, and
> can make our opinion ourselve.
>
>
>> In all these claims about this being a community project and it being
>> independent off people's employment and all, would you really find
>> disgruntled ex-employees which has only been involved in this project
>> through employment as the most trustworthy characters? How much time
>> do they actually plan to invest themself into this project on their
>> sparetime now that they're not employed by Mandriva?
>
> this is none of your business. really.
> they will speak about that if they want, but otherwise, please stay away
> from their private life.
Questioning people's involvement and dedication to a project is to dig
into people's personal life?
Do you have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for Mageia..?
>
>
>> I can't really start telling how provoked I am over seeing this
>> childish and truly community hostile attitude, or about the claims
>> about through the liquidation of Edge-IT all of the talents and
>> important people involved in development of the distribution
>> disappearing, guess what, the majority of the staff working on the
>> distribution for quite some time has actually been employed at
>> Conectiva, not Edge-IT!
>
> once again: if you think it's better to follow up mandriva, then please
> do so. what we did was community-friendly: after having understood that
> a reconciliation could not be done at this moment, it's way better to
> say "good-bye, we're going on our own", rather than rotting and
> spreading bad will / mood in the project.
I could  say something about the order of occurence on "good-bye,
we're going on our own" and "spreading bad will / mood in the
project", but whatever..
>
> and who knows, maybe there will be a reconciliation later on. but i can
> tell you that it's not possible right now. trying to force a
> reconciliation won't work - it doesn't work like that.
Forcing? It was a constructive discussion and invitation which
oviously is of interest to all parties, the opposition and rejection
from some people within your project seems to go right against much of
the motivation and goals for others involved with it.
But sure, deciding on and any participation in this is something
that's for you to decide on *together* with the rest of your
community.

I don't plan on ending the discussion nor trying to collaborate as
much as possible..

--
Regards,
Per Øyvind