[Mageia-discuss] Mageia-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 20 Cooker Updates

[Doug Laidlaw]

I have been downloading updates for a while.

When Alpha 2 is released, do I need to download it, or will the brew in the 
cauldron automagically re-brand my system as Alpha 2?  The DVD would be handy 
to have as a more current medium for a re-install.

Doug, MDV 2010.2

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:01:41 am mageia-discuss-request at mageia.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. alpha1 cooker updates? (Tony Blackwell)
>    2. Re: alpha1 cooker updates? (Anne nicolas)
>    3. Re: Fwd: Sound in Mageia? (Colin Guthrie)
>    4. Mirror (Juergen Harms)
>    5. Re: Mirror (Oliver Burger)
>    6. Re: Fwd: Sound in Mageia? (Wolfgang Bornath)
>    7. Re: Mirror (Wolfgang Bornath)
>    8. Re: Mirror (Michael Scherer)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 19:08:50 +1100
> From: Tony Blackwell <t.blackwell at uq.net.au>
> To: mageia-discuss at mageia.org
> Subject: [Mageia-discuss] alpha1 cooker updates?
> Message-ID: <4D773592.2000704 at uq.net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Is alpha1 at the stage where I can point it to a cooker repository so
> urpmi can find what is on cooker? Is there a utility yet so alpha1 will
> notify me when new packages are available for download?
> tonyb
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:30:10 +0100
> From: Anne nicolas <ennael1 at gmail.com>
> To: Mageia general discussions <mageia-discuss at mageia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Mageia-discuss] alpha1 cooker updates?
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimGSybaUF_54=ap+GqAmtz8hzH83KBb1Kc2+No9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Hi
> 
> 2011/3/9 Tony Blackwell <t.blackwell at uq.net.au>:
> > Is alpha1 at the stage where I can point it to a cooker repository so
> > urpmi can find what is on cooker? Is there a utility yet so alpha1 will
> > notify me when new packages are available for download?
> 
> you mean cauldron ? :)
> sure have a look here:
> http://mirrors.mageia.org/
> 
> mdkonline is not yet imported so notification system for updates is
> not ready yet
> 
> Cheers
> 
> > tonyb
> > 
> > Op dinsdag 08 maart 2011 13:38:36 schreef Wolfgang Bornath:
> >> 2011/3/8 Colin Guthrie <mageia at colin.guthr.ie>:
> >>> Out of curiosity, what did you change it from and to? Can you supply
> >>> the "pacmd list" output (just want to double check that the default
> >>> profiles/ports are sensible on your h/w).
> >> 
> >> I installed phonon-xine with its dependencies and then in the
> >> multimedia section of the KDE configuration I put phonon-xine on top
> >> of the list in the backend tab (before it showed only
> >> phonon-gstreamer).
> >> After that all sound applications worked (dragon, amarok, kscd, vlc,
> >> firefox plugins, etc.).
> >> 
> >> See output of "pacmd list" attached.
> > 
> > i had a similar problem, but that was codec related of the gstreamer. on
> > my machine, phonon-xine worked a lot better than phonon-gstreamer...
> 
> The downside generally is that phonon-xine is not developed (neither is
> xine itself), full of very annoying bugs, and has terrible support for
> pulseaudio. GStreamer fixes all these issues but obviously introduces
> others. Personally I don't have any problem with GST, but obviously
> milages varies.
> 
> FWIW, Wobo, what you changed was not "Speaker Configuration" as you
> previously indicated... you changed the Phonon Backend. So my reasons
> for asking the question no longer apply, which is good :)
> 
> Col
> 
> > 'Twas brillig, and Maarten Vanraes at 08/03/11 19:18 did gyre and gimble:
> >> Op dinsdag 08 maart 2011 13:38:36 schreef Wolfgang Bornath:
> >>> 2011/3/8 Colin Guthrie <mageia at colin.guthr.ie>:
> >>>> Out of curiosity, what did you change it from and to? Can you supply
> >>>> the "pacmd list" output (just want to double check that the default
> >>>> profiles/ports are sensible on your h/w).
> >>> 
> >>> I installed phonon-xine with its dependencies and then in the
> >>> multimedia section of the KDE configuration I put phonon-xine on top
> >>> of the list in the backend tab (before it showed only
> >>> phonon-gstreamer).
> >>> After that all sound applications worked (dragon, amarok, kscd, vlc,
> >>> firefox plugins, etc.).
> > 
> > FWIW, Wobo, what you changed was not "Speaker Configuration" as you
> > previously indicated... you changed the Phonon Backend. So my reasons
> > for asking the question no longer apply, which is good :)
> 
> I was not precise enough. Here is what happened:
> 
> 03/03/2011:
>  - I had to install task-pulseaudio with all dependencies AND
>  - backend was only phonon-gstreamer
>  - in speaker settings of "phonon" I  changed sound device from
> "Internal Audio" to "High Definition Audio Controller"
> It worked.
> 
> 08/03/2011:
> After updates this setup did not work anymore. So I
>  - installed phonon-xine and put it on top in the backend tab
>  - changed sound device back to "Internal Audio", the output setting
> to "Internal Audio Analog Stereo"
> 
> Works in stereo with internal speakers and headphone.
> 
> This is the current working setup with all updates installed (no
> /testing repos set).
> This is also the setup I created the "pacmd list" output.
> 
> Sorry about the unclear report.
> 
> > Talking to people at Switch brought up some facts which Mandriva should
> > be aware of:
> > ?- There is a heritage of bad experience that has been made with
> > Mandriva. ?- It is not the first time that I hear the argument Mageia =
> > Mandriva = forgetit.
> > ?- Mageia happens at present to be perceived as "just another one of
> > those distros that appear and disappear to oblivion" (maybe with a
> > component of unfriendlyness towards Linux).
> 
> Yes, I guess this is based on personal opinions and you can't really fight
> that.
> 
> > By the way, at my university there was a similar experience: Mandriva was
> > part of the officially supported infrastructure (mirror, consultancy),
> > with fees paid to Mandriva - that broke in dysharmony due to bad
> > administrative response from Mandriva, leaving quite some ill feeling.
> > Sorry if I wade through these negative arguments, but these
> > beyond-the-enthusiast-user spotlights count.
> 
> You can't compare this setup with anything related to Mageia. Mageia
> does not ask to become a consultant to Switch and Mageia does not ask
> for any fees. Furthermore "bad administrative response" is one of
> those things about Mandriva that Mageia will avoid by all means. It
> was caused by lack of manpower of a commercial company, something
> which is totally different at Mageia.
> 
> > I think that, when the stable release approaches, a small campaign to
> > rectify these prejudices would be an excellent thing.
> 
> Time to rectify those prejudices is now, at any time at any place (not
> only with mirror providers but in general).
> 
> > But I think that on the long-run there are lessons to be learned from the
> > discussion with Switch - mirrors for a stable Mageia should be preferably
> > hosted at professionally run mirror sites (who make the kind of
> > consideration I quoted above), university solutions should come as
> > additional icing. In case of a second round of discussion on how to
> > organise Mageia mirrors, it might be a good idea to have that discussion
> > with some participation from the mirror sites.
> 
> I can not confirm nor agree to this. As Oliver wrote, 2 universities
> already set up a mirror for Mageia and when looking around worldwide
> who is hosting a Mandriva mirror you will notice that educational
> institutions (aka universities) are the majority.
> 
> Using MirrorBrain may or may not be an improvement (I can't judge
> this) but IMHO it should not be a criterium to mirror or not.
> 
> Of course, if Switch wants it that way then it is up to the Mageia
> sysadmins to decide what is the better way - implementing MirrorBrain
> to please Switch or not implement it and forget about Switch - not
> speaking about other advantages/disadvantages which may come with
> Mirrorbrain.
> 
> > I have now arranged for a mirror to be set up at CUI - my old lab at the
> > university of Geneva - I hope it will come up in time for alpha-2.
> 
> That sound great, thanks.
> 
> > CUI is glad to help, but that is not a permanent solution - CUI normally
> > does not provide this kind of service - permanent mirroring services
> > should be provided by Switch as soon as a stable Mageia release becomes
> > available. I will pursue the discussion with Switch.
> 
> Ie, not permanent, do you know how and why this would stop ?
> 
> > Talking to people at Switch brought up some facts which Mandriva should
> > 
> > be aware of:
> >   - There is a heritage of bad experience that has been made with
> >   Mandriva. - It is not the first time that I hear the argument Mageia =
> >   Mandriva
> > 
> > = forgetit.
> > 
> >   - Mageia happens at present to be perceived as "just another one of
> > 
> > those distros that appear and disappear to oblivion" (maybe with a
> > component of unfriendlyness towards Linux).
> 
> IMHO, our best bet for such case is to wait, so people can make their
> minds and reconsider their position. I am not sure that trying to push
> now is good. It take time to recover trust and make people forget where
> do we come from.
> 
> Our problem is that if we say "we are a mandriva fork", people think of
> their bad experiences. If we don't, we appear as just yet another
> distro.
> 
> So maybe it would be better to engage first with people that do not have
> negative experience with Mandriva rather than trying to convince people
> who did have ?
> 
> > By the way, at my university there was a similar experience: Mandriva
> > was part of the officially supported infrastructure (mirror,
> > consultancy), with fees paid to Mandriva - that broke in dysharmony due
> > to bad administrative response from Mandriva, leaving quite some ill
> > feeling. Sorry if I wade through these negative arguments, but these
> > beyond-the-enthusiast-user spotlights count.
> 
> Well, we should make clear to people that we started the project for the
> same reasons that they broke from Mandriva, and that we are aware of the
> problems. But IMHO, we should not try too hard to convince them to help
> us, just say that we agree with them. The rest will come by itself.
> 
> > I think that, when the stable release approaches, a small campaign to
> > rectify these prejudices would be an excellent thing.
> 
> That sound like a delicate task ( for the aforementioned reasons of
> PR ). How would you start ?
> 
> > Talking with the people at Switch who maintain the Switch mirroring
> > service, there were also some concrete and technical arguments - I
> > 
> > quote, translating from German:
> >   "the communication with the mirror sites at Mandriva had already been
> > 
> > minimal, compared with other distros: announcing releases, checking the
> > availability at the mirrors (QA), etc" (which is a mere quote, dont ask
> > me to interpret).
> > 
> > Switch is reluctant to maintain a mirror at "assembly language level"
> > ("just run rsync every 2 hours"), they would prefer solutions using
> > something like MirrorBrain - but probably Mandriva experiences are part
> > of the background to this argument.
> 
> Well, what do they need more precisely ?
> 
> We understand well that they do not want to micromanage the mirror ( I
> think no one does ), but then they can for sure understand that we
> cannot adapt to everybody too on our side ( ie, another kind of micro
> management ).
> 
> And for mirrorbrain, I do not see how this relate to rsync, as the
> software is used on distro side to distribute mirrors lists, if I
> understand well. Rsync is still used to mirror around.
> 
> If I remember, the problem of switch was "there is not enough users to
> justify the mirroring" ( as you explained before ), and I do not think
> this will be solved until one or two years, nor that mirrorbrain will
> produce more users by magic.
> 
> So maybe we should just wait to be credible when asking something to
> them and be honest about that ?
> 
> > At present, putting a mirror on a univeristy site puts it into an
> > environment which is in good match to the straightforward rsync approach
> > - correct for the alpha period of Mageia.
> 
> Given the high number of university for all others distributions, I
> think this is a good match for most of them :)
> 
> > But I think that on the long-run there are lessons to be learned from
> > the discussion with Switch - mirrors for a stable Mageia should be
> > preferably hosted at professionally run mirror sites (who make the kind
> > of consideration I quoted above), university solutions should come as
> > additional icing. In case of a second round of discussion on how to
> > organise Mageia mirrors, it might be a good idea to have that discussion
> > with some participation from the mirror sites.
> 
> I do not understand what you mean by "professionally run mirror". I
> think this doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
> 
> Switch.ch core "business" is not to run mirrors, this is to sell
> connectivity ( to swiss schools ). The core "business" of a university
> is not to host mirrors, but researchers and students.
> 
> From my point of view, there is 2 motivations ( that can be
> overlapping ):
> - people who run mirrors to help free software
> - people who run mirrors because this help them on various level
> 
> A mirror can help to save bandwidth ( for example, free.fr is a french
> provider, all linux user will likely go on their mirror as this is
> faster ), or to leverage this for peering/trafic negotiation ( see
> http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/09/peering-and-transit.ars , I
> also recommend to see http://www.blogg.ch/uploads/peering-playbook.pdf ,
> given at the end of the article ).
> 
> I think most universities does this to help free software, and because
> they use internally. I think most volunteer-run mirrors, like the one of
> Wobo fall in this category too.
> 
> On the contrary, I suppose that most operators ( like switch to some
> extend, but for free.fr, belgacom, etc ) does this for peering/trafic
> reasons, and that mean they need to have enough traffic for this to be
> useful for them, and enough users to justify the need. For now, I do not
> think we are in a position to be interesting to this kind of mirrors.
> 
> So what we could do is to ask for some metrics so we could now when we
> will be able to reach a agreement, and try to have a multiple step
> plan :
> - first, we try to engage some universities ( or likely minded admins,
> such as kernel.org, or others ), to cope with the load of the
> distribution. Some being 4/5.
> 
> - based on the feedback, we make sure that the documentation is correct,
> that our procedure works, etc, etc.
> 
> - once we have more and more people ( with metrics that have to be
> found ), we try to find more mirrors.
> 
> - once we are interesting enough to engage people in the connectivity
> business, then we try to engage them ( likely not before one or two
> years, maybe more ).